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#21 [url]

Jul 1 09 8:25 PM

Interesting discussion.

Let me say that I have no opinions whatsoever on the lycanthropy front. I own model werewolves. I've played with model werewolves. I know the lyrics to "Werewolves of London." But that's as far as it goes.

What interests me is how the forum has grown more sophisticated in figuring out how the "mass popularity versus lots of figures per customer" thing works.

Here's what I consider the three ways of succeeding:

1) We discover something that vast numbers of people want lots of.

This is an ideal that had more traction 20 or 30 years ago than it does today, because most of those topics have been beaten to death by a hundred manufacturers. If we made really great Napoleonic French / Norse dwarves / WWII Russians, would we not find that everyone who wants them already has them? Maybe. Maybe not.


2) We discover something that vast numbers of people want a few  of.

That's your gladiators and western gunfighters etc. Figures you might want in small numbers. However, because they are part of a wider popular culture, a lot of people will be interested - especially because they only need to buy and paint a few. Role players fall into this category; many of them own lifetime figure collections that add up to fewer actual models than I painted in the last two weeks (about 100 figures, I think) - but there are a lot of roleplayers.

3) We discover something that small numbers of people want lots and lots of.

Which is where we come to things like the Marlburian era. It's never going to be a massive gaming genre. Games Workshop are not planning their own early C18th ranges, with codices on the Bavarian Army of 1704. But anyone who games this era at all may want 500 figures to start with, because it's all about big set battles and sieges with a lot of men in very similar costumes.

So, it seems to me that werewolves (etc) fit into category 2.

Nobody wants 200 werewolves. Do they? I think not. So it's a matter of making sure that as many customers as possible A) know about and B) actually want to buy them.

Thanks - H


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#22 [url]

Jul 1 09 8:59 PM

Changing the name to:  'Werewolves' might help get people's attention to gauge support (perhaps?)...

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

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#23 [url]

Jul 1 09 9:13 PM

Changing the name to:  'Werewolves' might help get people's attention to gauge support (perhaps?)...

Lycanthropy is the proper term when discussing mulitple base animal breeds.

If they don't know the connection between Lycanthropy and werewolves they most likely don't know enough about werewolves to want them in any significant quantity.

.Nobody wants 200 werewolves. Do they? I think not. So it's a matter of making sure that as many customers as possible A) know about and B) actually want to buy them.

That would depend on the cost per figure. I know more than a few SpaceWolf players would jump at the chance to field and entire army of hybrind Werewolf/Marine models.

I'm also a BIG advocate of getting the other were's represented on the sprue. Almost no one makes them, and certainly no one makes them in plastic. They've been in the Werewolf RPG for over a decade, and Anita Blake and Sookie Stackhouse novels/TV sereis are climbing in popularity.

No ripped clothes. Anything shifting that big is going to destroy what it was wearing, and probably wouldn't leave the tattered remnants dangling from them any longre than they had to. We don't ahve to concede to Comics Code Standards these days.

Don't forget that these, especially if we cover mulitple breeds, could work well as Big mutants, or that feline Alien race, etc...


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#24 [url]

Jul 1 09 9:30 PM

Lycanthropy is the proper term when discussing mulitple base animal breeds.
If they don't know the connection between Lycanthropy and werewolves they most likely don't know enough about werewolves to want them in any significant quantity.

-adamsouza

I was suggesting a popularist term for marketing purposes - but I guess 'Lycanthropes' might do the trick. 

That would depend on the cost per figure. I know more than a few SpaceWolf players would jump at the chance to field and entire army of hybrind Werewolf/Marine models.
I'm also a BIG advocate of getting the other were's represented on the sprue. Almost no one makes them, and certainly no one makes them in plastic. They've been in the Werewolf RPG for over a decade, and Anita Blake and Sookie Stackhouse novels/TV sereis are climbing in popularity.

-adamsouza

I agree - Space wolf players would go nuts for them, but even WHF beast/chaos players would like them.  For other systems - there are ranges out there that have were-creatures (for the PC amongst us wink).  Even in Lord of the rings Werewolves are mentioned and there are no easily accessible figures at a cheap price...  Then you have the wierd WW2 mob who want russian/nazi/gi werewolve and as adam mentioned "if we cover mulitple breeds, could work well as Big mutants, or that feline Alien race, etc" which I am all for

No ripped clothes. Anything shifting that big is going to destroy what it was wearing, and probably wouldn't leave the tattered remnants dangling from them any longre than they had to. We don't ahve to concede to Comics Code Standards these days.
...

-adamsouza

I agree 100%

But at the end of the day - it's the demand of the LUL that will determine the 'right' or 'wrong' of our discussion and wishes.


"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

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#25 [url]

Jul 3 09 9:29 AM

I think Lachlan has a valid point about the name.

I know what a Anthro / Anthropomorphic Animal is. But that doesn't mean everyone eals knows what that term means.
grin


Using more popular terms that are more common knowledge will probably get more support.
Wear Canines and West Felines Maby.


I still argue I whould like to see a set of cat legs and dog legs.

The paws and proportions of the legs in cats and dogs are totally diffrent. Not to mention the shape of the claws.

Cat claws are more curved. Dog claws are more thick and spike like.

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#26 [url]

Jul 5 09 2:04 PM

I've been thinking about what Howard said about "We discover something that vast numbers of people want a few  of."

The problem is as we speak this sprue still sits at 12%. We need atleast another 38% so we can get renders.
=/

Does this means there is not enought people who want this sprue, or is there something they need from this sprue that's not being delivered?

One would think wear wolves alone would be popular enough even on there own. They are after all the Main Stay of almost all super natural horror settings.

You can find them in Pulp fiction and Pulp WWII. They can be found in Modern, Fantasy, and even Sci-Fi settings.





Maby we should start listing of how we're going to use this sprue?


My self I'm only interested in the Wear Jackles/Wolfs. I'm going to heavily convert mine into count-as Ogyrns for Warhammer 40k.

I'm going to green stuff Cargo Pants and Wife Beater shits onto them. I'm going to make my own ripper guns and then cut/repin there arms to make it look like there naturaly holding them.

The reason I like the sound of these guys is being plastic they will be easyer to convert the way I want then the existing pewter modles.


I'm prety sure I'm one of the only guys in this world who whould want to do this convertion with the sprue thow. So I'm just looking for a good base for this convertion.


Even if they had ripped clothing I chould just green stuff in the holes, or green stuff a big great coat over them.


So for me the only thing I realy desier from this sprue, is reasonable accuret features. I want Canaien Claws, and Canaien feat.

I don't want the thinner more curver cat claws, or the more small cat paws. I want the spike like canaine claws, and the more canaine paws for feat. Agien this is why I sujest Feline and Canaien feat at the least.


I also don't want ripped Socks/Shoes. I want to see some bad two joint legs. Ripped Shirts and Pants are cool with me.


Thow be carefull how you do the clothing.

Just because counting on the period of clothing then there only good for that period. If there wearing modren clothing there only good for modren/near future settings. They will look out of place on a tolken esq setting for example.

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#27 [url]

Jul 5 09 2:32 PM

I think part of the problem with this submission is, like many LAUL submissions, the original premise isn't precise enough.

It's hard enough to get pre-orders without renders, but it's magnitudes more difficult when the description isn't clear what's on the sprue.

Even if we hammer out what's on the spure in the thread, someone who's just casually perusing through the LAUL entries won't see it.

I'm interested in this suggestion specifically because it mentioned weretypes other than wolf.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about 4 Critters per sprue in Crinos Form, 2 Canine and 2 feline, with a head choice of wolf and Hyena for the canine bodies and Tiger and lion for the feline bodies ?

Maybe even male and female.

That way your guarenteed to get 2 of each were of whatever flavor your interested in per sprue.

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#28 [url]

Jul 5 09 3:06 PM


How about 4 Critters per sprue in Crinos Form, 2 Canine and 2 feline, with a head choice of wolf and Hyena for the canine bodies and Tiger and lion for the feline bodies ?
Maybe even male and female.
That way your guarenteed to get 2 of each were of whatever flavor your interested in per sprue.

-adamsouza


The Hyena is not a dog. It's a type of Mongoose.
wink

I whould sujest a Wolf/Jackal.




I also like the idea of 1 Male and 1 Female Body. I could fully support this idea.

As for the body count being:
1 Male Canine
1 Female Canine
1 Male Feline
1 Female feline


I feel mixed about this.

If we do it think was we could do perfectly detailed Feline and Canine forms. That's good.

If we do it this way it means if you don't need cat people tough luck. Your stuck with them.
>=/



It would mean my self I would have to buy more or these sprues. Witch I guess is good for WF but... Maby there is a better way?

The torso whould be fairly close....

Another option is a 3 figure sprue. 2 male torsos, 1 Female Torso.

Then there would be Canine/Feline Legs/tail/lower half, arms, and all the head options.

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#29 [url]

Jul 5 09 4:20 PM

If we do it think was we could do perfectly detailed Feline and Canine forms. That's good.

I'm interested in having BOTH the feline and canine were's done right.

Another option is a 3 figure sprue. 2 male torsos, 1 Female Torso

We lose an entire figure per sprue that way.

The Hyena is not a dog. It's a type of Mongoose.

Although hyenas bear some physical resemblance to canids, they make up a separate biological family that is most closely related to Herpestidae (the family of mongooses and meerkats), thereby falling within the Feliformia.

Even though it's technically Feline, it looks more Canine to me. Hence why I suggested it sharing the Canine body.

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#30 [url]

Jul 5 09 6:08 PM


I'm interested in having BOTH the feline and canine were's done right.


-adamsouza


Isn't that what I said? All the same I agree. Make the right and they shall come.
wink




We lose an entire figure per sprue that way.


-adamsouza


The only problem with the 1 of each approtch.

1) What about people like me who don't have any use for the Cat stuff? It seems like it whould be a waste.

2) That sprue lay out means you have a 1:1 ratio of Males to Females. I like that with my zombie hord, but not a great Party/squad Balence.

I think if we could make this a 3 figure sprue with a $4 price tag, it helps encourage people to have to by more.

More sprues Sold = Better for WF.
;)

We have establish this sprue it not ment for line infantry or the such.


Thow even with that approtch you end off slightly better. Since Reaper Pewter Wear Wolfs are $8/$6 a pop for Male and Female. It's just not the huge "THIS IS AWSOME DEAL", when you need mostly male wolfs and have to get them at $5 a pop.

Well haveing to buy 1 sprue per pop does in fact mean more sprues sold for WF. This is abit in the extream.

This then means you just are left thinking "Why not in pewter?".
O.o


The way I'm looking at this is the final head count for the figures must be done carefully consider the optio. To many figures and WF doesn't move enought for them to be profitable. To little and no one will buy them unless they look REALY good. As the saveings just aren't there. It's going to be tricky to balence thows to things.

I'm thinking:

2 Male Torsos
2 Male Dog legs
2 Male cat legs

1 Female Toro
1 Female dog legs
1 Female cat legs.

Even if you only want the guys from the sprue, your looking at $2.50 per guy at the most. $2 per guy if it's a $4 sprue.

If you get all three toros you have even better saveings.



Now for the 2nd canaine head.

Human/Jackles are already establish threw mythology/Popular culture. Also the Jackle Heads could be used for hounds.

It seems the safer choice.


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#31 [url]

Jul 5 09 6:50 PM

What about people like me who don't have any use for the Cat stuff? It seems like it whould be a waste.

What about the people, like me, who do have a use for the cat stuff ?  I just lost one per sprue that way.

There was a whole LAUL submission for Cat People in the Sci Fi Section, I'm sure they would be happy with these.

Human/Jackles are already establish threw mythology/Popular culture.

Please site some references to this.

I'm familair with alot of popular vampire/were works of fiction (Anita Blake, Sookie Stackhouse, Blood Ties, World Of Dakness) and I can't think of any were Jackals.

In any case I'm relatively certain they could find room for lots of heads.


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#32 [url]

Jul 5 09 7:21 PM


What about the people, like me, who do have a use for the cat stuff ?  I just lost one per sprue that way.


-adamsouza


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the Cat stuff should be a OPTION. Not a REQUIREMENT.

You should be able to do them all cat, or all Hound.




There was a whole LAUL submission for Cat People in the Sci Fi Section, I'm sure they would be happy with these.



-adamsouza


Yah. They whould be happy to make full units of cat people. Not get a bunch of Wolf stuff they don't need.
wink

See what I'm trying to get at now?





Please site some references to this.
I'm familair with alot of popular vampire/were works of fiction (Anita Blake, Sookie Stackhouse, Blood Ties, World Of Dakness) and I can't think of any were Jackals.
In any case I'm relatively certain they could find room for lots of heads.


-adamsouza

On the internet you can find short stories of Jackal men mostly play off Anubius of Eygyption mythos. If you look around on furry commmuniuts mostly.

Ok. It's not *That* Main stream, and there only short stories pened by guys in there spare time posting them on the internet. Hopeing they can be the next Lovecraft or something.

But there as cammon as one involveing Cats/Tigers/ect. I'd say even more.

I've also NEVER have seen a refrence in a sotry anywear about a were Hyena. At Least with Jackles you have the hole Anubius thing to shamelessly play off of.

(I'm also not going to post any Were Jackal Images. All the ones I can find are NSFW.

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#34 [url]

Jul 5 09 7:52 PM

I think part of the problem with this submission is, like many LAUL submissions, the original premise isn't precise enough.
It's hard enough to get pre-orders without renders, but it's magnitudes more difficult when the description isn't clear what's on the sprue.
Even if we hammer out what's on the spure in the thread, someone who's just casually perusing through the LAUL entries won't see it.

-adamsouza


Agreed.  Though detail vs generic seems to vary by genre and games the sprue is usable for. There are a couple of submissions I can think of that are very detailed that aren't getting very far, either (6mm Hovertank by JBR comes to mind).

The title is probably another issue - although creative and attention gathering, I think it detracts from the submission.



How about 4 Critters per sprue in Crinos Form, 2 Canine and 2 feline, with a head choice of wolf and Hyena for the canine bodies and Tiger and lion for the feline bodies ?
Maybe even male and female.
That way your guarenteed to get 2 of each were of whatever flavor your interested in per sprue.


I can see arguments both for and against mixing canine and feline forms on the sprue. Not sure which is more valid. I know for myself I'd buy it either way, because I'd like both forms. I'm probably looking for 10-20 figures of each form - meaning that including both on the sprue would mean that I'm going to wind up buying more sprues, since each sprue would have fewer of each type.  However, I know that mixing forms would likely turn off some people who only want one form.

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#35 [url]

Jul 5 09 9:21 PM

I still maintain that one were-creature body is going to be very much like another - reguardless of species or gender (unless you are going to do a were-ape, were-rhino, were-spider or were-seal!!  Or want six breasts on the girl were-wolf?) only the heads & tails are really the ones that will change.

Anyway - a friends of mine very nicely did some drawings for me.  He even threw in a demonic beast head and an idea of turning the cat's tail into a 'demon' tail.

...and for the Vampire fans!

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

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#36 [url]

Jul 6 09 1:04 PM

Female Wearwolfs work and don't look the same or mutibreast. Cheek out Reaper's pewter wear wolfs.

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/werewolf/latest/02863
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/werewolf/latest/02872

Also look at how Reaper did the feet. You can't tell me thows feet would look right on a Cat.
neutral

I'm not useing the cat stuff, but if it's there atleast do it right. Yah know what I mean?


@ Kris: Agien. I'd like to see this sprue being able to make full units. So able to do them all as dogs, or do them all as cats.

Just because you can assemble them pure doesn't mean you HAVE TO. I think trying to find away to be able to assemble 3 wolfs, or 3 cats from the same sprue just expands the appeal.

@Adam: Turns out there are stories of people turning into hyenas among African tribes. I appologise to Adam. Thow I still feel hyenas make for a odd animal to add.


A Jackal's head looks alot like a Hound's Head, so I feel this is the better choice. (Thow if Jackal/hound and a wild dog/Hyena heads both fit, then all the better.)




In the WishList one of the charaters was a Man/Hound charater, created when a evil man's soul was fused with his Dog.

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#37 [url]

Jul 6 09 2:26 PM

Thow I still feel hyenas make for a odd animal to add.
They exist in Werewolf RPG and the Anita Blake Novels (soon to be TV series).

A Jackal's head looks alot like a Hound's Head, so I feel this is the better choice.

Outside of the Anthropomorphic Warriros of Anubis, who aren't lycanthropes, I've never heard of a man and Jackal hybrid. You'd effectively be creating a new lycanthrope.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After carefull consideration, I've changed my opinion on the bodies.

I'd much rather see 4 bodies like this

that are close enough to use for any of the types we've discussed than 3 models with extra parts.

Including Wolf, Tiger, Lion, Jackal, and Hynea heads would satisfy most Lycanthrope needs. A pair of demon heads to boot would be simply icing on the cake.


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#39 [url]

Jul 6 09 3:58 PM


that are close enough to use for any of the types we've discussed than 3 models with extra parts.
Including Wolf, Tiger, Lion, Jackal, and Hynea heads would satisfy most Lycanthrope needs. A pair of demon heads to boot would be simply icing on the cake.

-adamsouza

I could live with that as thows feet are more wolf like. So that's giveing me about everything I need. I also like the head mix.

If it comes up agien, I do support Feet and Claws speficly for the cats.

Anthromolphic "Hellhounds" can be found is quite a few settings. The Wishlist is the one that sants out in my mind the most. Thow these are Demons or in the case of Wishlist a Ghost of hellish orgins. Not were's.


I feel I would like to see this sprue be a 3 figure sprue. The main reason is size.
I personal want to see something that TOWERS for 28mm heroic/32mm.

About 45mm is what I'm thinking.

40mm is good for true scale 28mm, but only slightly taller then Heroic.
50mm whould truely tower over heroic 28mm, but be much to massive for true 28mm.




Also something eals to think about. How poseable do we want these guys?

Something along the lines of Torso, Legs, arms, head seperate and ball joints good enough? (Should give a good range of movement to help make no two figures exactly alike.)

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