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Sep 3 13 4:43 PM

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I just finished watching that latest interview at 2013 Gencon.

The lovely lady mentioned that SIX, yes 6 new Historical boxes are in the works. ALL for one war.


DETAILS, HINTS, ETC....PLEASE

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mrinku

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#1 [url]

Sep 4 13 2:33 AM


Been some speculation already on the thread where the interview was posted. More sensible to shift it here.

I'm torn between them striking out in a new direction not currently covered in plastic, and the new range hitting an established big market, regardless of other company's work. The Dark Futures range falls into the former category, the WW2 stuff into the latter.

Popular wars already covered include:

American Civil War (Perry)
Napoleonic Wars (Perry, Victory etc)
Wars of Religion (Warlord)

The first two of these are definitely so widely played and perennial, that they can be pretty sure of sales, just like the WW2 ones. 

But... I'd like to see something outside the box, maybe. My secret hope was Wild West/Indian Wars, but 6 sets seems a little excessive for that.

One possibility might be modern military. Though again, I'm not sure 6 kits is likely, unless vehicles are starting to be included.

Mark Dewis

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#2 [url]

Sep 4 13 4:55 AM

craxyharborc,

Thank you, this is a great post to start the discussion.

Yes, more historical kits are coming so have some fun guessing. Just understand this is a major project. That is all WF will say at this time.

Jim

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bryon31

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#3 [url]

Sep 4 13 6:17 AM

One War - So I'm guessing "The Crusades" and the "Spanish Reconquista" are out of the running.

We could be looking at: World War 1/Great War, Revolutionary War/American War of Independence. War of the Roses, The Hundred Years War, American Civil War, Crimean War, The Seven Years War, Vietnam, The Homo sapiens Neanderthal Conflict of 11,003BCE, and a seemingly endless list really. Holy jeez there are a lot of wars. What’s wrong with humanity?

I’m also interested in the expansion of the current lines that Daisy mentioned,  Jim can you shed some light on said expansions?
 
I can't express how excited I am, sounds like the next year is going to be crazy interesting.

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jack

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#4 [url]

Sep 4 13 6:24 PM

"One War to Rule them all, One War to.."    sorry, my mind went out for a walk but its back. devil

*Luoshangzhi,
You mentioned some great options, back on the "Mortis and stage two..." thread. Very cool
If in fact the new 'series' turns out to be the Great War, and WF were to follow the layout as you speculated, there are still a vast number of additional support kits which could be built. I.e.; Artillary, Cavalry for starters, not to mention adding allies to both sides later.

I think WW1 would make for an interesting modeling project, I'm not sure it's loaded with gaming opportunity.  I imagine trench warfare gaming being an exercise in futility.  Just my thoughts.

-bryon31


Interestingly, if you were to take 'trench battles' out of gaming WW I, what do you really have left? I know that not every battle of the war was fought in the trenches, but it certainly was a major part of the war.
Personally I have always wanted to do WW I armor, granted they never took place in numbers of any consequence, just a personal "think it would be fun" thing.  Of course to be 'remotely' realistic, I'd have to have some kind of die roll for every tank to check for "breaking down" before each move turn.

OK sorry for getting off on my own thing here. lol

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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#5 [url]

Sep 4 13 7:49 PM




Interestingly, if you were to take 'trench battles' out of gaming WW I, what do you really have left? 



Um, the Eastern Front, the Italian Front specifically mountain warfare, the Mesopotamian Front, the Russo-Turkish Front, the Siege of Tsingtao, the Senussi Uprising, the Zeeburgge (SP?) raid, East Africa...


Personally I have always wanted to do WW I armor, granted they never took place in numbers of any consequence, just a personal "think it would be fun" thing.  Of course to be 'remotely' realistic, I'd have to have some kind of die roll for every tank to check for "breaking down" before each move turn.



Um, *how* many tanks were at Cambrai again, dude? And *how* many Schneider CA1s were committed to support the AEF during our first offensive? How many Renault FT-17s did George S. Patton, Jr. have during his debut as a tank battalion commander during the Argonne Offensive? How many FT-17s were thrown into combat during their very first battlefield deployment again? And how many Schneider CA1s, St. Chamonds, and FT-17s were used during the Franco-American counter offensive South of Soissons? 

Oh, and fussy as the early tanks were I'd suggest that that die roll be a bit higher odds than you're planning, perhaps relying instead upon a "Fog of War/Friction" card deck to better simulate the possibilities of what could go wrong with the early tanks, and tailor it specifically to the tanks you're using (i.e.., FT-17s have problems with broken fan belts and getting stuck in shell holes, St. Chamonds were underpowered and easily stuck on terrain irregularities, while Schneiders had a nasty habit of brewing up if a machine gun hit on their flank created spalling inside rupturing one of the fuel cells and spraying gasoline all over the exposed engine, etc.).

Even in 28mm an FT-17 quick build kit for wargamers would IMHO be an extremely versatile subject, especially if the kit came with the various armament options to customize the model to specific armies in which these ubiquitous early tanks served, from captured examples in the service of the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War, to second string reserve tank battalions desperately trying to halt the Panzers in May, 1940.

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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mrinku

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#6 [url]

Sep 5 13 1:20 AM



The only real problem with gaming WW1 tanks is that basically the allies owned them all. The Germans only constructed a grand total of 20 A7Vs. Admittedly, the Germans did field captured allied tanks... having a peak corps strength of about 50. Nonetheless, against the thousands of allied vehicles fielded, it was pretty miniscule.

You don't get serious tank on tank action until the Spanish Civil War. 

Hmm... I dunno. WWI skirmish level gaming cuts through the "boring trench warfare" problem of larger scale gaming. Aside from fronts which were NOT locked down as badly as the western front, there were a lot of desperate skirmishes going on all the time; most offensives succeeded to some degree before being pushed back; *during* the bloody days and weeks that this was happening, a lot of soldiers were involved in fights that would make good scenarios. 

However... Unless vehicles or cavalry are included, I'm still coming up short for 6 kits. 28mm isn't going to see artillery on the map, realistically, so it's Jerry, Frog and Tommy infantry, plus maybe the Ivans. 2-3 kits missing.

Oh, and Leyland... re your own speculation about  the 6 kits being an infantry and a support kit for each of the main three sides... it's possible, but I just don't see that a full 30 figure kit is needed for the support stuff, especially when we are really only talking a few mortars and machine guns. Far better to have some of those on the normal infantry sprue as options.

*could* be an infantry and a cavalry box for each nation though.

And is anyone else excited about the other bit Daisy dropped about expansions to Rising Sun? The obvious one would be Warrior Monks, since they fielded whole armies, but surely there has to be a way to get some ninjas? Maybe in a Command and Support kit, since I think a box of 30 ninjas *might* be a bit excessive. On the other hand... ninjas get used in modern scenarios, too...

Mark Dewis

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#7 [url]

Sep 5 13 3:55 AM


everyone,

I can NOT get more specific on what Daisy has provided in her interview.

The GenCon attendees DID get a first look at the Mortis, 'some' American 15mm troops for WW-II, and the 15MM Leviathan.

WF is giving everyone the 'heads up' that 2014 will see a dramatic increase in new WF products, more joint ventures with DreamForge, Scarab and other companies, numerous new rule systems specific for WF figures, and other exciting new ventures - historical, scifi, and fantasy!

I hope this is helpful to everyone. Be prepared, as the Boy Scouts like to say.

Jim

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bryon31

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#8 [url]

Sep 5 13 5:58 AM

I was thinking "what if the 6 new historical boxes are not soldiers but something else?" Then I started the wheels turning. WF did a great job on the ships for Leviathan and I started to imagine a World War 1 or 2 Naval battle game.

I'd prefer the age of the Dreadnaughts. The six boxes would consist of a Box of Battleships, one with Cruisers, and one with Destroyers and Submarines for each side.

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jack

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#9 [url]

Sep 5 13 10:40 AM

Um, the Eastern Front, the Italian Front specifically mountain warfare, the Mesopotamian Front, the Russo-Turkish Front, the Siege of Tsingtao, the Senussi Uprising, the Zeeburgge (SP?) raid, East Africa...
Um, *how* many tanks were at Cambrai again, dude? And *how* many Schneider CA1s were committed to support the AEF during our first offensive? How many Renault FT-17s did George S. Patton, Jr. have during his debut as a tank battalion commander during the Argonne Offensive? How many FT-17s were thrown into combat during their very first battlefield deployment again? And how many Schneider CA1s, St. Chamonds, and FT-17s were used during the Franco-American counter offensive South of Soissons? 
Oh, and fussy as the early tanks were I'd suggest that that die roll be a bit higher odds than you're planning, perhaps relying instead upon a "Fog of War/Friction" card deck to better simulate the possibilities of what could go wrong with the early tanks, and tailor it specifically to the tanks you're using (i.e.., FT-17s have problems with broken fan belts and getting stuck in shell holes, St. Chamonds were underpowered and easily stuck on terrain irregularities, while Schneiders had a nasty habit of brewing up if a machine gun hit on their flank created spalling inside rupturing one of the fuel cells and spraying gasoline all over the exposed engine, etc.).

-luoshangzhi


Pont made Professor.


"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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jack

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#10 [url]

Sep 5 13 11:09 AM


I was thinking "what if the 6 new historical boxes are not soldiers but something else?" Then I started the wheels turning. WF did a great job on the ships for Leviathan and I started to imagine a World War 1 or 2 Naval battle game.
I'd prefer the age of the Dreadnaughts. The six boxes would consist of a Box of Battleships, one with Cruisers, and one with Destroyers and Submarines for each side. -bryon31


I know WF has done work for / with other companies and done somre really great products, I just hope they dont venture too far 'off the trail' of doing there very cool 28's.

As for doing WW I / the Great War naval miniatures.. that would be outstanding.
Of course I think if your going to do something as small (scale wise) as destroyers, so to have small squadron level naval skirmishes, (DD vs DD or DD vs CA/CL's)  you might want to consider going slightly 'larger' with 1200 scale.

This is all a very big.. maybe and what if of course. 

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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mrinku

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Sep 5 13 12:48 PM

Oh, if Jim's going to tease us with "other exciting new ventures" and mention science fiction, I am so holding out for something Victorian. Space:1889 is getting revived, you know, and VSF/Steampunk seems to be a bit popular right now too :)

Plus, that matches with cowboys.

Mark Dewis

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#13 [url]

Sep 5 13 4:18 PM

The only real problem with gaming WW1 tanks is that basically the allies owned them all. The Germans only constructed a grand total of 20 A7Vs. Admittedly, the Germans did field captured allied tanks... having a peak corps strength of about 50. Nonetheless, against the thousands of allied vehicles fielded, it was pretty miniscule.

-mrinku


Except on those specific battlefields where the tanks were deployed enmasse, M. 

You don't get serious tank on tank action until the Spanish Civil War.


And even then they were overwhelmingly one-sided affairs as the Republicans fielded actual *tanks* (Russian supplied T-26 Model 1933 light tanks) that carried an actual *cannon* that could knock out another tank, while the Nationalists had to rely upon Panzer Is and L33 tankettes which only carried machine guns...


Hmm... I dunno. WWI skirmish level gaming cuts through the "boring trench warfare" problem of larger scale gaming. Aside from fronts which were NOT locked down as badly as the western front, there were a lot of desperate skirmishes going on all the time; most offensives succeeded to some degree before being pushed back; *during* the bloody days and weeks that this was happening, a lot of soldiers were involved in fights that would make good scenarios.  However... Unless vehicles or cavalry are included, I'm still coming up short for 6 kits. 28mm isn't going to see artillery on the map, realistically, so it's Jerry, Frog and Tommy infantry, plus maybe the Ivans. 2-3 kits missing.

Um, if you're talking about artillery on the actual front lines of Great War battles, then there's the French Puteaux 37mm 18SA infantry gun, the German 7.62 cm gun used by the Stosstruppen (a cut down and modified captured Russian field gun), or the German 3.7 cm anti-tank gun, while the British had their 4.5 inch light howitzer or the 13-pounder or 18-pounder. Light artillery pieces often found themselves right on the front lines during the Kaiserschlact IIRC, as ostensibly rearward areas were being overrun by the advancing Stosstruppen companies...

Oh, and Leyland... re your own speculation about  the 6 kits being an infantry and a support kit for each of the main three sides... it's possible, but I just don't see that a full 30 figure kit is needed for the support stuff, especially when we are really only talking a few mortars and machine guns.


Actually, M, you're perhaps not considering the amount of space on a sprue a a tripod mounted machine gun, its ammunition and perhaps water cans, six-man crew (yup, the extra guys who carry the extra ammo, and the NCO in charge of the lot), and the same for a trench mortar team, and still find room for a flamethrower or such in the same set. Also, by 1918 the Germans IIRC were massing machine guns in key battlefield defensive positions, and the number of total machine guns found in an infantry regiment since the outbreak of the Great War in 1914 had gone up by orders of magnitude by 1918. For example, a French infantry regiment in 1914 could depend upon four Hotchkiss M1914 machine guns. By 1918 that same regiment could count on typically 16 such weapons backed up by a trench gun section of several guns *and* attached trench mortars *and* the VB rifle grenade launchers, hand grenades, and Chauchats of the individual rifle squads within that same regiment. 


Far better to have some of those on the normal infantry sprue as options.


See my comment above concerning the weapon loadout of the 1918 infantry regiment. IMHO the basic 1918 Great War infantry set for the major combatants will be pretty crowded in a 30-figure set all on its own...

*could* be an infantry and a cavalry box for each nation though.And is anyone else excited about the other bit Daisy dropped about expansions to Rising Sun? The obvious one would be Warrior Monks, since they fielded whole armies, but surely there has to be a way to get some ninjas? Maybe in a Command and Support kit, since I think a box of 30 ninjas *might* be a bit excessive. On the other hand... ninjas get used in modern scenarios, too...


A box of NInjas/Shinobi IMHO would be a one-per-customer seller, as 30 Ninjas/Shinobi would be about as large a raiding party as one might need in a typical all-out assassination attempt on a daimyo. 

Sohei would be nice and make far more sense for the reason you stated, but 16th Century Ming Chinese IMHO would be orders of magnitude better, as they are (1) neglected and (2) fought the invading samurai armies of Hideyoshi to a standstill in Korea during the Imjin War 1592-98. Ming Chinese for the period have the added bonus of making a splendid alternative human army for fantasy gamers, as its an army with a plethora of weapon options, from hand held rocket arrow launchers and handguns to repeating crossbows, siege engines, and plenty of cannon. As the troops were as colorful as their Japanese opponents, a battle from the Imjin War would make for quite the eye candy in 28mm lined up across a wargame table.

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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#14 [url]

Sep 5 13 4:19 PM

Pont made Professor.

-jack

I am dangerous, ain't I? And a legend in my own mind... Bwahahahahaaaa!!!!

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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mrinku

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#15 [url]

Sep 6 13 1:33 AM

Leland, I'm all for Chinese (and Korean) boxes, but if they bring out plastic ninjas, it simply will not matter. They will walk off the shelves.

As to the numbers of support weapons for WW1... even with the numbers you're giving above, all you need is one HMG and one mortar on an equipment sprue and a light MG on the basic troop sprue to provide what is going to be required for gaming. The proportions don't need to be spot on, but there were several hundred soldiers for each regimental support weapon. 

Mark Dewis

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#16 [url]

Sep 6 13 2:25 AM

WW1 rates very low in wargamers interest (4% in the poll below)

http://theminiaturespage.com/polls/1851423986/

Of the top ones Napoloenics, WW2 and ancients score highest in the historical wargamer periods.

But my view is don't just aim at wargamers, there is a huge market of non-wargamers out there.

And just because another firm is making in an area, does not mean that WF   should not be making them. They may have an advantage such as options, price point or distribution.

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bryon31

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#17 [url]

Sep 6 13 5:53 AM

We are closing in on the century mark for the start of WW1 so I think the theme may be spot on for the new line. That being said I think the poll Justin posted is telling.

Mark - I agree that most gamers, me included, will only by 1 box of 30 ninjas. However, I think every gamer from every corner of the hobby would buy a box. So the necessity to sell multiple units to single buyers is diminished.

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#18 [url]

Sep 6 13 11:52 AM

Leland, I'm all for Chinese (and Korean) boxes, but if they bring out plastic ninjas, it simply will not matter. They will walk off the shelves.

-mrinku


Oh, I agree that Ninjas are popular and will sell in and of themselves; it's just the practical consideration of selling plastics to be profitable (ie., you have to make up the volume to cover the tooling costs). WF will have to (pardon the pun) throw the dice and hope that they get the volume of individual sales as opposed to "repeat offenders" out to build armies...

As to the numbers of support weapons for WW1... even with the numbers you're giving above, all you need is one HMG and one mortar on an equipment sprue and a light MG on the basic troop sprue to provide what is going to be required for gaming. The proportions don't need to be spot on, but there were several hundred soldiers for each regimental support weapon. 


M, yes, *and* the fact of the matter is that a single Spandau '08 will take up a great deal of space on a sprue:

All those ammo containers, the water can and hose, the clonky sledge mounting, and so on will eat up plenty of space, as would a Hotchkiss M1914 or Vickers .303 for much the same reason. These Great War machine guns were not the lighter, more efficient constructs of the Second World War by any stretch of the imagination, and again, if the scenario is set in 1918, we're talking about assaulting whole infestations of the beasties, not just a handful in proportion to the troops. By 1918 regiments in every major army *except* the AEF were understrength to one degree or another, so the proportions of troops to weapons was skewing more than the official TO&Es would lead one to believe.

Mortars will also gobble up more sprue space than the typical light mortar of a generation later:

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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jack

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#19 [url]

Sep 6 13 11:53 AM

WW1 rates very low in wargamers interest (4% in the poll below)
Of the top ones Napoloenics, WW2 and ancients score highest in the historical wargamer periods.

-zedeyejoe

  As strange as this may sound...  I think wargamers reallly dont know "what to do with WW I" as for gaming.
After all I think most of our "first impressions" of military history we get from the youth of watching "war movies". (boy theres a great historical resource  thank you Hollywood)
 
I think that caught in the middle of the technological change is part of it. Tanks replacing the mass cavarly charges, trench warfare, and of course the 'Aero-plane',  who no one really knew 'what to do with' at first.

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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#20 [url]

Sep 6 13 12:02 PM

WW1 rates very low in wargamers interest (4% in the poll below)[url]Of the top ones Napoloenics, WW2 and ancients score highest in the historical wargamer periods.But my view is don't just aim at wargamers, there is a huge market of non-wargamers out there.And just because another firm is making in an area, does not mean that WF   should not be making them. They may have an advantage such as options, price point or distribution.

-zedeyejoe


The problems with that poll are (1) desperately small sample size, and (2) its several years old and just like fashion, AFAIK after over three decades in the hobby, trends change. Also, you're reading the wrong line, Justin, as the "Post-Napoleonics to 1913" category beat out Napoleonics by a full 1%. And again, there's another problem, as that category is *"all theaters*" which means everything from the Crimea to the Taiping Rebellion, from the Wars of Liberation in South America to the American Civil War, from the Sino-Japanese War 1894-95 to the Balkan Wars prior to WW1, etc., etc., etc.

WW2 is IMHO the current trend in historical gaming. How long that will hold is anybody's guess. I Agree with your points on WF's advantages vice the competition, however there is the problem of risking a release when market saturation is looming... not an easy call, but a call WF clearly understands they must make.

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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