Remove this ad

Lead

Apr 19 09 9:47 AM

Tags : :

Discuss this submission here!


http://www.wargamesfactory.com/BookingRetrieve.aspx?ID=50101

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Remove this ad

#1 [url]

Oct 6 09 9:55 PM

any chance that this could be lowered to more reasonable target?

you have sprues for the generic infantry and cavalry, but i'm not sure there is a market for 1000 cannons... most armies would likely field one or two, while they'll need at least a dozen infantry sprue.

would 500 be an ok target?

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

Oct 6 09 11:59 PM

thanks for that john.

but they aren't selling the artillery in isolation, it's far of the WSS package. if people want to buy foot, they need cavalry, and artillery.

so WF makes its money off the whole package.

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

Oct 7 09 1:37 AM

Oldentired, the LaUL is set to 2000 (used to be 1000) because WF needs to know they will make money on the deal.

-jjdiffley

I haven't been around lately, but has there actually been an official decision to up the limit to 2000? Last I saw, it was just an idea under discussion.


but they aren't selling the artillery in isolation, it's far of the WSS package. if people want to buy foot, they need cavalry, and artillery. so WF makes its money off the whole package.

-oldentired

Still, if there is not enough demand to make it financially viable to produce the cannons in plastic, then there is little point in doing so. Then again, perhaps the interest in cannons would go up once the infantry comes out.

And then there is always the option of using metal artillery pieces.

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

Oct 7 09 7:00 AM


And then there is always the option of using metal artillery pieces.

-griefbringer

<sigh> exactly what i'm trying to avoid. hard plastic is the way of the future, baby.

and doesn't cost 10 pound apiece...

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

Jul 2 10 12:42 PM

Gentlemen;

OK, I know that I've probably advocated against this submission as hard or harder then anyone. I've already pointed out in the other WSS threads all of the economic and historical accuracy reasons that reinforce this position. However...

This IS a "wish list", and it is Wargames Factory (the same fine folks who gave you Celtic Chariots), so I decided to take a look at what might be possible within the constraints of WF's standard sprue size and the "generic" aspect of the design. Please bear in mind, I am not an artist, I certainly am not a professional designer (or Tony or Howard), and this is the result of mostly cut, paste, trace and a little SWAG. However, these are done to proper 1/56th scale and do fit the actual sprue size used by WF.

The first sprue is for the guns and has two carriages (light and medium) and three barrels (light, medium and howitzer), plus a couple of buckets and the necessary axle blocks, wheels and carriage center plates (with elevation chocks molded in place). Remember, these are deliberately very generic in design and could be used from the last half of the 17th Century until the introduction of standardised artillery under the De Vallière system in France after the WSS. They will also work for Russian guns under Korshin's and Peter the Great's artillery reforms, which borrowed heavily from Western designs. If Tony and Howard show any interest, I can provide much better-detailed illustrations from my source materials (which include Norris, Rogers and Hogg, as well as several French sources).

The second sprue has a very generic single-horse limber, one multi-part Artillerist with an assortment of heads and open-handed arms, and one single-piece draft horse. This type of limber would have been very typical of those actually seen on the battlefield for light and medium artillery, although much of the light artillery would have been manhandled or prolonged by the crew after initial deployment. The guys at WF may be able to figure out how to make the horse a multi-part within the space constraints, but I can't.

As to how to actually sell these, well, I guess that's up to you folks and the boys from WF. They could obviously be sold as single sprues, but they could also be packaged with some mix of gun sprues and limber/crew sprues. I have made the assumption that additional crew and the actual Artillerist's impements could/would be provided for from the proposed Accessory sprue and with bits from the Generic Infantry sprue.

I have deliberately not attempted to do a heavy gun, as you could only get one per sprue, and as they would have required a larger multi-horse limber and requisite horses. Some things, I think, are still better left to metal. This would also include very nation-specific guns like the Swedish battalion gun, Korshin's multi-barrel Russian light gun and his very distinctive light gun that is gun and limber combined, and those older guns and mortars that dated to well back in the 17th Century.

So, to those "diehards" crying out for plastic Generic Artillery, please let me know what you think, and more importantly, let Tony and Howard know what you think. Have fun with this...

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com


Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

Jul 3 10 9:00 AM

May I suggest the following ideas:

1.) Placing the guns on half-sprues, with one gun per half-sprue. This would then allow for the possibility to re-package them later on in various other sets if appropriate.

2.) If there is a separate 18th century horse sprue made (for the cavalry), then that could be used to cover any need for draught horses, so no need to include a horse in the limber sprue (though some items of harness could be useful).

Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

Jul 3 10 10:21 AM

Howard - I based this design on the dimensions of a Viking sprue (3 7/8" X 5 7/8"), is that a "full" sprue or a "half" sprue? If it is a "full" sprue, is it possible to produce one only half that size? Using Griefbringer's suggestion, I could easily reformat the layout with one complete gun on each side.

Griefbringer - The reason that I did a new horse is to replicate more of a Percheron/farm/plow horse type than what the Cavalry would be riding. Certainly a minor point that could be overlooked in the interest of keeping everything "generic". Assuming that any new horses created would be void of the actual saddlery, then a proper harness collar and some other paraphenalia could be substituted on this sprue. Good points, thanks for the feedback.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#10 [url]

Jul 3 10 10:57 AM

I based this design on the dimensions of a Viking sprue (3 7/8" X 5 7/8"), is that a "full" sprue or a "half" sprue? If it is a "full" sprue, is it possible to produce one only half that size? Using Griefbringer's suggestion, I could easily reformat the layout with one complete gun on each side.

-burlesonbill

All of the current WF sprues out there are full-sized sprues. However, a few months ago Tony mentioned that there is also possibility to do half-sized sprues, and that such sprues would have respectively lower tooling costs.

As for the horses, another option could be to use the ancient horse sprue if you need something that looks different from 18th century cavalry mounts.

Quote    Reply   

#11 [url]

Jul 3 10 12:51 PM

Griefbringer,

You said: "As for the horses, another option could be to use the ancient horse sprue if you need something that looks different from 18th century cavalry mounts."

Not a bad suggestion, and one that I did consider. My reasons for "passing" on it are:

1. I have not personally seen the Ancient Horse sprue, but I have read the description that specifically states that these are Ancient "ponies", not the full-sized horses of the 18th Century.

2. I can't see very many gamers wanting a cantering or galloping limber horse (no Horse Artillery in this era), and if you use the Ancient Horse sprue, then you will end up with at least one horse in this pose.

Another reason that I (personally) would like to see a "proper" draft horse is the conversion potential that this would offer. It isn't realistic that WF will produce every possible item that we might want in a "generic" range, especially for those that go in for all the little "extras" that add color to an 18th Century game or collection. Here are a couple of ideas that I already had while designing this "sample" sprue:

1. Using some sheet stock from Evergreen or similar, make a small 2-wheel tumbrel cart bed to fit the limber frame, add some stake sides and maybe a bit of rope and you have a hay cart, supply cart, etc. Very useful in the period. And the Evergreen sheet is available in 6" X 9" sheets with pre-scribed designs that look like wood planking.

2. Use the axle block and larger wheels from a gun for the rear axle, the limber and small wheels for the front axle, some Evergreen sheet for the "floor", and either plank or stake sides to create a 4-wheeled farm or light supply wagon. You can even cover this wagon with a bit of tissue or cloth "tarp" soaked in liquid sprue or PVA and make the wagon very generic. Again, very useful for the period.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Quote    Reply   

#12 [url]

Jul 3 10 4:14 PM

Excellent choice to have two gun carriages and three types of barrels.  I really like the idea of having the draft horse as part of this kit as well.

For my Quebec 1690 armies, I'll need at least 7 light guns, maybe 8.  That's 8 sprues giving me 8 medium sized guns for other conflicts as well.

I will "pre-order" 8 of these these sprues based on what I've seen with Bill's idea and will mention that as part of the pre-order.  I can see myself perhaps even buying more further down the line.

Quote    Reply   

#13 [url]

Jul 3 10 5:11 PM

I want at least one box of each too.grin  I hope to convince my regular opponents to put together two armies amongst us.  That's what we have done for the ECW....it works for us.

I am therefore I think....OR....I think therefore I am...OR...I think I am therefore I am!!

Quote    Reply   

#15 [url]

Jul 16 10 9:34 AM

I would certainly buy these sprues if they were made available. As much for the conversion/scratchbuilding possibilities that Bill outlines as for the artillery.

I like the idea of being able to field a full artillery train, supply wagons etc as wellas the guns themselves.

Quote    Reply   

#16 [url]

Sep 4 10 1:34 AM


Gents, can I refer you to my rather lengthy submission in "Where to after WSS?" thread in 18th Century L&UL posts? You will find some things of relevance to WSS sprues there.
Cheers, Rohan.

Quote    Reply   

#17 [url]

Dec 31 10 12:21 PM

Amongst this discussion, I am surprised that no one brought up the subject of ship's or fortress cannon.  The Spanish Succesion was a period of sieges, and amphibious landings.  Someone somewhere here mentioned pirates.  All need carriage guns.  Time was one could find cast lead ship's guns from the various makers of model ship fittings, but they get expensive in a hurry when one requires a lot of them.  I have some Vauban fortress pieces (from Battlements I think, they are in cast foam) and some gabion lines that will need cannon.  I should think that a set of these, with or without crews, ought to be popular. 

Some of us might be using rules for more tactical combats, like "Fusil,and Fortess" for example.  (My WSS armies will have 24-man or larger battalions.)  These rules make battalion guns feasible, so do we need or want smaller caliber guns in the mix?  

I like the idea of being able to model an artillery train as well.

More thinking out loud.

Bob Potter

Quote    Reply   

#18 [url]

Mar 28 12 4:12 PM

Still like Bill's sprue ideas further back on this thread, but I'd be in favor of having options for a seige weapon, a mortar, perhaps a howitzer (if that was something of this era?).  No matter what, just having the options for the field cannons is better than nothing, but the more things available, the more attractive the set becomes.

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help