Remove this ad

Lead

May 2 10 12:24 AM

Tags : :

I've been giving the concept of a gladiator sprue some thought for a while.  While it would be lovely to have a dedicated sprue for the 4 main types:
- Murmillo (easily double as a secutor - just have a seperate head for use against the Retiarius)
- Retiarius
- Hoplomachus
- Thaecis

I also thought that perhaps a special equipment, helmet and shield sprue and use the numidian body sprue?  They don't have the greaves or belts but they wouldn't be a bad start?

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Remove this ad

#2 [url]

May 2 10 3:26 PM

Whilst they wouldn't have the greaves, arm protections and nekedness that is faily customary of the 'gladiator image' - the ancient body sprue wouldn't be a bad place to start:
Then throw another sprue - even one of those tiny sprues they are discussing - with 5 head options, 3 shields, a net, a spear, a trident, a couple of the various types of swords - maybe even some mounded greaves and arm peices to add on might be possible?

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

May 2 10 4:00 PM

i will have some gladiator conversions from the wf numidians in the near future (after i finish my romans ... i want to use some of their spare parts).  i was thinking greaves and such (possibly even a curiass chest piece) could be done reasonably at this scale by cutting a piece of paper and putting a couple of puff paint details on it once mounted.  i tried an iberian breastplate from the numdian standard stick thing, but it was too thick and shaving it down, while achieved, was excacerbating.  i also intend to cut out a few german nekkid man-torsos to go on top of liberated numidian skirts.  i'll probably scratch a trident from a spear shaft and use that mesh bag that onions come in as a shot at a net (my planet of the apes guys need a net, too) ... any other conversion ideas?

with great power comes great irresponsibility.

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

May 2 10 4:29 PM

Thracian Gladiator's helm

Hoplomachus Helm

Murmillo Helm

Secutor Helm


"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

May 2 10 4:32 PM

Yes I could certainly use gladiators. a spruce with upgrades for the ancient light infantry would do well and it could also include some special bodies like bare chest with arm armor and etc

Where is his will needed?

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

May 2 10 4:47 PM

Perhaps greaves along these lines?

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

May 2 10 4:59 PM

I did a fun 'mock-up' of a gladiator 'half sprue' (the new concept that Tony has raised) with:
5 head options
3 greaves
1 Trident
1 spear
3 armoured right arms
1 armour left arm (for the retiarius)
1 arm holding net
3 shields
3 swords (including the curved thracian sword)

I stuck the top neked german next to the sprue for perspective - it's a pity we couldn't have a neked torso on top of bare lefgs with just a loin cloth!


"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

May 2 10 5:40 PM

it's a pity we couldn't have a neked torso on top of bare lefgs with just a loin cloth!
[image]

-lachlan

check the zulu sprue!  no sandals there, though ...

with great power comes great irresponsibility.

Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

May 2 10 7:05 PM

looks good although I wonder what the injection system thingy (the circle in the middle of the spruce) would do on a half spruce. a semi circle?

Where is his will needed?

Quote    Reply   

#10 [url]

May 2 10 7:26 PM

looks good although I wonder what the injection system thingy (the circle in the middle of the spruce) would do on a half spruce. a semi circle?

-kenshin620

Ahhh - I didn't even think about that!

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#11 [url]

May 2 10 7:31 PM


check the zulu sprue!  no sandals there, though ...

-sagh

That's OK - from most of the stuff I've read gladiators fought in bare feet.  The Zulu sprue bodies would look pretty damn good as gladiators and would give you 5 to dress up (I might have to fit an extra armoured arm or shield on the mini-sprue)!!


"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#12 [url]

May 2 10 7:37 PM

I'm going to have to get this book now!

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#13 [url]

May 2 10 11:01 PM

I'm going to have to get this book now!

-lachlan


Dont bother, it has wonderfull art but its way behind current archeological knowledge by now, and wasnt very well researched to begin with.
The Angus McBride art is very good, but just looking at the cover you see a pairing that never existed in tha arena, as Provocators (the one with the breastplate) always fought other Provocators and a Hoplomachus (with small round shield, sword and spear) would either fight a Murmillo or a Thraex.
A much better book on the subject is also available form osprey:
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Gladiator_9781846034725

As incidentaly I am one of those guys dressing up as a gladiator (Retiarius) and explaining to the spectators of our showfights how real gladiators looked like and fought I would love to have a sprue on that subject.
But if this is going to be done it should finaly try to portrait the current know how and not the Hollywood and Sandal movie fantasy that has influenced almost all gladiator minis in any scale I know of. 

Am I the only one that cheered on those RDA Troopers while they whiped the floor with these wannabe Kroot called Na'Vi?

Quote    Reply   

#14 [url]

May 2 10 11:39 PM

Thracian Gladiator's helm
[image]
Hoplomachus Helm
[image]
Murmillo Helm
[image]
Secutor Helm
[image]

-lachlan


Nice images but except for the first Thraex helmet from Pompeji bad references:

This cheap Indian helmet called a Hoplomachus, is actually a bad replica of a late 2nd Century AD Murmillo helmet.
As the Gladiator types of Murmillo, Thraex and Hoplomachus actually used the same helmet designs - which did evolve during the 400+ years of gladiatorial games - the crest form was, in conjunction with weaponary - the main trademark of each galdiator type.
The Murmillo had the angular "fishcrest",  the Thraex had the round sloping crest with the griffons head at the front and Hoplomachus a similar rounded crest without the griffon.

The Murmillo replica is quite crude in contrast to the originals and the indian Secutor has much to big eyeholes (trust me, I regularly fight someone wearing that helmet)

The greave you have pictured is Thrakian by the way, but its from about 300 BC and has nothing to to with gladiator greaves.

Here are some pictures of original equipment:

Chieti type (round eyes) Thraex and Pompeji type (bigger grates) Murmillo from Pompeji

Berlin type (2nd Cent. CE in Berlin Museum) Murmillo

Republican or early imperial (100 BC - 50 AD) ?Thaex?
without Visor (Full visors were introduced at about 50 AD)
(the original Cheekpieces are missing)

Pompeji type Murmillo and Retiarius shoulder guards from Pompeji

Short Murmillo/Secutor greaves (worn on the left or shieldarm leg)
and a supposed Hoplomachus Parmula  from Pompeji

Provocator helmet and two secutor helmets from Pompeji

Pompeji type Thraex and a pair of high Thraex/Hoplomachus greaves from Pompeji

Supposed gladiator short sword and spear head from Pompeji:

During the Republic Gladiators used Mainz type Galdii, but after the Augustan reforms the weapons were shortened to the size of daggers.
The sword above has a blade of about one foot length and the two other daggers found in the Pompejian galdiator barracks were only a foot in length including the handle.

The above is only a small collection from images I have collected on Flickr, you can find much more pictures of helmets, greaves and weapons as well as reliefs, mosaics and other items showing gladiators here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40060535@N05/galleries/ 
and here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40060535@N05/sets/


Am I the only one that cheered on those RDA Troopers while they whiped the floor with these wannabe Kroot called Na'Vi?

Quote    Reply   

#15 [url]

May 3 10 2:55 AM

Great info Omega - thanks!!  I love the examples you've put up there - I want all of those helmets on the sprue!!.  I did wonder that the secutor's eye holes were rather large as they were supposed to stop the trident?

I agree that it is important to get things right - the reason I suggested the existing body sprues was that if it is just a weapon/accessory 'add on' it's far more likely to happen! 

Now that you've shown your expertise omega - I'm going to pick your brain!!

I think there would probably be enough room on the sprue to include gladius length and dagger length blades to reprsent both eras, but was there mush difference in shield sizes or would the same size fit both eras?  Also it appears from many images that many only wore one greave - does that fit with your understanding?  Also - I did a list of things on the 'test sprue' - is tere anything you'd add or take away?
5 head options
3 greaves
1 Trident
1 spear
3 armoured right arms
1 armour left arm (for the retiarius)
1 arm holding net
3 shields
3 swords (including the curved thracian sword)

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#16 [url]

May 3 10 2:56 AM

Also I wanted to add that I was reading today that gladiators were used in warfare on a few occassions - but tended to fair poorly in mass combat - being seen as an act of desperation rather than sound tactics.

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#17 [url]

May 3 10 3:39 AM

OK concerning the sprue:
If we consider Pompeji (79AD) as a reference then we would need
1. Murmillo Helmet (Type Pompeji with angular grates and sweeping brim)
1. Thraex Helmet (Type Chieti with round eyes and straight brim) 
1. Secutor Helmet
1. Provocator Helmet

The Hoplomachus can be converted form the Thraex by snipping of the Griffon head at the front.
An Essedarius helmet can be converted from the Secutor by removing the sicle crest.

Then you would have to include one short greave (going to just under the knee for the Murmillo/Secutor and one pair of mid-thigh high greaves for the Thraex/Hoplomachus. The Provocator needs one mid sized greave that just goes up to cover the knee.

The armored left arm needs to include the shoulder guard (commonly refered to as a galerus, though this is probably not the name the Romans called it).

To upgrade a bare torso to a Provocator you will also have to include one  "clip on" breastshield or pectoral. 

The shields needed would be one rectangular scutum for the Murmillo/Secutor, one rectangular curved Parmula for the Thraex and one round, maybe even semihemispherical Parmula for the Hoplomachus.

The Provocators scutum is considerd to be a little shorter than the Murmillos and could be done by shortening this shield.
The Essedarii fight with an oval curved Scutum like the Republican/Ceasarian Romans and could be taken from that WF sprue.

As for weapons, each one of the following should be included:
1 short sword for the Murmillo/Secutor and as the Hoplomachus secondary
1 dagger for the Provocator or as the Retiarius secondary
1 angled/bent Sica for the Thraex
1 trident and net for the Retiarius
1 Spear for the Hoplomachus, that can also be shortened as a Javelin as the Esadarii are believed to have opened their fight by throwing a few Javelins at each other.

If you take a look at the Zliten Mosaic you will see all of these types with the corresponding gear:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40060535@N05/galleries/72157623094273344/

Concerning Galdiators in war:
Their are a few accounts of them being fielded as Auxilliaries (and most probably equiped with standard roman miles gear) but they were not trained to perform battlefield manouvers being single combat specialists.
In one account they were caught on floats during a river crossing by Batavian auxilliaries and these Germanic horsemen were considered water combat specialists, so its no suprise the Gladiators were soundly defeated in this skirmish.

Am I the only one that cheered on those RDA Troopers while they whiped the floor with these wannabe Kroot called Na'Vi?

Quote    Reply   

#18 [url]

May 3 10 9:52 AM

Then there is the Spartacus slave revolt, which AFAIK involved a number of ex-gladiators amongst the ranks of the rebels.

How much of their gladiator gear they might have kept is another issue, though.

Quote    Reply   

#19 [url]

May 3 10 4:10 PM

Then there is the Spartacus slave revolt, which AFAIK involved a number of ex-gladiators amongst the ranks of the rebels.
How much of their gladiator gear they might have kept is another issue, though.

-griefbringer

I doubt much at all - they had good kit from all those romans to wear.  Much better than wearing a reminder of your slave days.  That said - if I did a spartacus army (and if this sprue comes out i'd use all the WF box sets!) I'd include a core of gladiators - even if it was inaccurate, it's too cool to pass up on.

Omega - I knew you'd have the good information for us!!

P.S.  Thanks for the info on the book Omega. L

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   

#20 [url]

May 3 10 4:13 PM

Another question - would the zulu body sprue or the ancient body sprue work best for gladiator bodies?

I see in the pictures that the arm guard usually had a cross chest strap but unless WF do a dedicated gladiator body sprue I think adapting one of the existing body sprues is the best bet.

"Don't try to make babies with your own roleplay character - it always ends in pain & shame" - Advice I never thought I'd have to give once, let alone TWICE!!

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help