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Jun 18 12 1:04 PM

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New Liberty and Union League Submission: Persian Immortals

Vote here: http://www.wargamesfactory.com/BookingRetrieve.aspx?ID=36896

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#1 [url]

Jun 19 12 10:20 AM

Everyone,

We found your comments about using WF figures to fight other fantasy/scifi armies, and we believe that these figures would be perfect for this concept.

Think of it, using "that other company's" fantasy/sci vs. WF 'historical figures'. A little real world history could be injected! (Taught!)

Jim

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bryon31

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#2 [url]

Jun 19 12 11:35 AM

I like the idea of Immortals, I just don't know how they're going to be any different from the persians already made.  I guess the helmet and facial hair is different.

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#3 [url]

Jun 19 12 11:14 PM

Depends on the period IIRC:


http://iranpoliticsclub.net/history/civilization-persia1/images/Persian%20Immortals%20Elite%20Immortals%20in%20action.jpghttp://iranpoliticsclub.net/history/civilization-persia1/images/Persian%20Immortals%20hunting%20chita.jpghttp://wiki-images.enotes.com/thumb/f/fa/Persian_warriors_from_Berlin_Museum.jpg/300px-Persian_warriors_from_Berlin_Museum.jpghttp://images.wikia.com/deadliestfiction/images/f/f9/Immortals.jpghttp://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/ita/ita06025.jpghttp://www.oznet.net/cyrus/2imorts.jpghttp://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/ita/ita06025.jpghttp://farm8.static.flickr.com/7200/6920363284_6b42670110.jpghttp://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Military/Achaemenid_Soldier1.gifhttp://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/resource/pix/warfare/army/p_immort.jpg

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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jack

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#4 [url]

Jun 20 12 12:31 AM

*Loushangzhi, 
In the 4th pic down.. the soldier on the far Rt. carryng the square standard with the 'red/black triangle image" is also identified as a "Scythian standard bearer" in the book "Warfare in the Classical Age". Perhaps it was referring to 'that soldiers' region of origin and and not as a "Scythian unit".
Just presupposing here, but its my guess that the color images were from one of Osprey's books?
"Thank God for their researchers and books." Sincerely.

Based on the first two and the last image, that obviously uniforms change w/ the times. However, at least at one time, yellow, purple and 'scarlet' seems to have been a major theme with immortal regiments.
This causes me to wonder, did the "entire" unit have a standard uniform or as with pic 1 & 2, the regiments were given some latitude in their uniform, allowing for some 'regimental individuality'.

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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bryon31

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#5 [url]

Jun 20 12 6:10 AM

If they have visible armor like these then I'd be a little more interested. The padded armor and Scale mail would certainly differentiate them from the current batch of pajama wearing Persians.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/ita/ita06025.jpg

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#6 [url]

Jul 5 12 2:17 PM

I say go with the armoured look for this set, a mix of Greek-style linen cuirass and scale armour protection. Throw in some Greek-style large round shields and Bob's yer uncle, Charlie's yer aunt.

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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#7 [url]

May 29 13 2:30 PM

Any movement on this? At the very least, there's a definite hole in the WF Persian stable in the form of armoured Persian troops wearing the linen cuirass. These would be suitable as both Immortals, and as Persian troops trained to fight in the Greek manner carrying the large Greek-style round shield replacing the traditional Persian/Mede wicker shields:






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Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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#8 [url]

May 30 13 5:09 AM

luoshangzhi,

Thank you for your suggestion.

At this time that is not a WIP for WF. 

With that said, the WF Greeks would benefit from both types of troops as well as additional shields and weapons. 

We are considering this option, again thank you.

Jim

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jack

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#9 [url]

May 30 13 4:07 PM

You know I got two words.. "Future Release".
I have the feeling, God willing, that WF's going to be around for a long, long time.  And personally I just cant see the "Legacy of the Greeks" really being complete without such a historically well known unit like the Immortals being represented at some point.
 
And on that optimistic note.. 
If / when (hypothetical here) the box sets "are" in 24 or 30 men each, I think 2/3 in "linen" or 'studded leather' and the other 1/3 in the 'scale' would be a fairly accurate representation of the unit. Of course I know WF would do 'the' research needed to get this right.
 
My thanks to Bryon31 and Loushangzhi for the pics in historical points. But again, I think this would be so cool and very popular.

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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#10 [url]

May 30 13 5:06 PM

I think everyone on here has the feeling that WF is going to be around for a long time. I certainly think, and hope that they will. And I am certainly looking forward to all of the sets they'll be using to round out their lines, and the rules sets they might release to go with.

Whatever you can do with finesse I can do more thoroughly with volume.

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#11 [url]

May 30 13 11:37 PM

I thought the Persians wore their armour under their robes

Herodotus book 9 Persian wars
"As the barbarians continued charging in divisions, the horse of Masistius, which was in front of the others, received an arrow in his flank, the pain of which caused him to rear and throw his rider. Immediately the Athenians rushed upon Masistius as he lay, caught his horse, and when he himself made resistance, slew him. At first, however, they were not able to take his life; for his armour hindered them. He had on a breastplate formed of golden scales, with a scarlet tunic covering it. Thus the blows, all falling upon his breastplate, took no effect, till one of the soldiers, perceiving the reason, drove his weapon into his eye and so slew him."

So you would have to find historical justification for putting it over the robes.

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jack

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#12 [url]

May 30 13 11:52 PM

I thought the Persians wore their armour under their robes
So you would have to find historical justification for putting it over the robes.

-zedeyejoe

True of course. But that does bring me to and cause me to ask Bryon31; "Where did you find the pic posted 20 June 2012?"
If you look closely, it appears that all three types of armor I had mentioned in my post a few hours ago, are depicted in this one scene.
On the left two standing Persians, one archer and a spearman holding up his part of a 'shield wall' both seem to be wearing padded/linen armor. In the foreground a kneeling archer has what looks like 'white' leather armor and kneeling in front of him another is wearing scale. 

Perhaps it was simply someones composit painting showing the evolution of the Persian armies arms and armor?

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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bryon31

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#14 [url]

May 31 13 7:08 AM

              
Bryon31; "Where did you find the pic posted 20 June 2012?"

-jack


 
To be honest I just copy and pasted it from luoshangzhi post just above my own. I searched the image apparently it is the box art for Italeri Persians in 1/72

Plastic Soldier Review is likely not the most historically sound source, however, they give the kit 10 out of 10 for historical accuracy and the troopers have armor over their robes.

I would argue that Herodotus mentions breast plate beneath the robe, the armors here are decidedly not what I would call breast plate. I would think scale armor would be more comfortable over robes, that being said I am not and do not claim to be an expert on Persian arms and equipment.

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jack

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#15 [url]

May 31 13 1:59 PM


To be honest I just copy and pasted it from luoshangzhi post just above my own. -bryon31

Well that just goes to show..  I Cant See. In fact its even worse.. *Loushangzhi had posted that pic "twice" on the same date.. and I still missed that.  My parents would be 'so' proud. devil

Plastic Soldier Review is likely not the most historically sound source, however, they give the kit 10 out of 10 for historical accuracy and the troopers have armor over their robes.


Im not that familar with the 'accuracy' of the "P S R", so I would be interested in others opinions as well.
It would seem logical that wearing armor 'over' their robes was fairly common. I recall a picture series that showed the "typical" Samurai warrior dressing for battle, it showed the progressive layers of clothing he wore right up to the fitting of his armor.

"You see old friend, I brought more soldiers than you did." 'King Leonidas - 300'

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#16 [url]

Oct 5 13 4:25 PM

I actually read the Plastic Soldier Review. It has been my experience that their info if not completely accurate is close for most practical purposes. They try really hard to stick to the resource books, that being said your mileage may vary for pretty much any source, particularly net based sources. The most accurate web source the last time I checked was the Wikipedia. It is more accurate than most physical encyclopedias,  it also has more depth in its articles; however I have found outdated and false information in the Wikipedia from time to time. Remember, trust no one, sleep with your shotgun, they are out to get you… just kidding. But seriously look for more than one source on research projects, wither it be work or play.
 
grin

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#17 [url]

Oct 5 13 10:07 PM


I would arguethat Herodotus mentions breast plate beneath the robe, the armors here aredecidedly not what I would call breast plate. I would think scale armor would be morecomfortable over robes, that being said I am not and do not claim to be anexpert on Persian arms and equipment.

-bryon31

As you can see, Herodotus mentions scale armour, which is a common type of armour in the Middle East.

And yes I have been a member of the Society of Ancients for 40 years now, its a jolly good place to learn things about ancient warfare.

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#18 [url]

Oct 5 13 11:04 PM

I would arguethat Herodotus mentions breast plate beneath the robe, the armors here aredecidedly not what I would call breast plate. I would think scale armor would be morecomfortable over robes, that being said I am not and do not claim to be anexpert on Persian arms and equipment.

-bryon31

Well, we do know that there's some circumstantial evidence that the Persian Kardakes depicted on the Alexander Mosaic and Greek vase paintings, et al that some wore a Greek-style linen cuirass, and from other surviving sources we know that some Persian cavalry wore bronze helmets and metal scale leg protection, and it does IMHO stand to reason that wearing body armor under one's robes may when one's robes are a uniform color shared with one's comrades in the same unit constitute a *uniform* and thus a ready means of identification on the battlefield, and who is to say that the Persians may have has a lightweight linen undershirt beneath that body armor for comfort and to prevent any skin irritation or chafing?

I tend to lean towards the school that at least the Greek-style linen cuirass was in use with select Persian infantry units, most especially those who were also equipped and trained as hoplites including carrying a Greek-style hoplon and long spear.

Leland R. Erickson, Evil-Genius-at-Large "Clouseau! Give me ten men like him, and I can destroy the whole world!" -Inspector Charles Dreyfus

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#20 [url]

Oct 5 13 11:27 PM

Oh I think any armour must have padding underneath it to absorb the shock of the impact.

The reason that I can think for wearing a tunic over the armour is to protect from the armour heating up. In WW2 you have pictures of soldiers frying eggs on the metal of their tanks.

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