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#21 [url]

Apr 20 10 5:11 AM

Totally logical and understandable - so lets support these and get Infantry - shortly followed by Cavalry - shortly followed by Artillery ..............

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#22 [url]

Apr 20 10 6:03 AM

I agree, buy shed loads of infantry the day they are released so we can get the cavalry and artillery sooner.

In fact, release the cavalry first as those are more expensive in metal than infantry. That way I can build up my armies faster and cheaper.

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#23 [url]

Apr 20 10 8:01 AM

Tony, if you do this, would they include both carbineers and dragoons (carbineers having shorter musketes for firing while on horseback, and dragoons armed with sabres for cavalry charge and muskets for dimounted fighting)?  Also what about Lancers such as those used by the French?  Would they be seperate offerings, or a single offering with options for any of the above?  Lastly, would there be options for a command group?

John

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#24 [url]

Apr 20 10 8:30 AM

We'd attempt to make this a TRULY generic set - not bland - but covering as many as the bases as are possible without making too many compromises. The horses themselves would be on a separate frame - so 4" x 6" would be all about riders/options. We could do either 2 or 3 bodies/sprue depending and allow for a lot more "extras"


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#25 [url]

Apr 20 10 4:00 PM

Good to know these are a go.

I'm not in a rush, because I got plenty of stuff I'm working on now.  However, when these are ready, I'll be buying some right after the infantry, and looking for artillery, too.

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#26 [url]

Apr 21 10 12:51 AM

Thinking back, if I remember right the French generally trotted in to contact with pistols, firing them at point blank range. The allies closed with sword instead.

Front Rank do this to a degree in so much as the horse at the halt come with sword at the carry (allies) or pistol at the carry (French) Foundry suuply a mixture of arms with pistols and swords at the carry and the present.

Generic cavalry in justaucorps/frock coat with tricorn, carbine sling with sword/pistol would cover most of the line cavalry. Thinking further afield, if you had a cartouche you could glue over the swivel on the carbine sling with musket attached, you could turn the figure in to a dragoon. Dragoons carried full size muskets strapped butt down on the saddle (these are 1740's dragoons, but you get the idea)

And with the pistol at the carry

The horse should have a military bridle with a double bit, and crupper

Without so much as a damn your eyes www.16ld.org

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#27 [url]

Apr 21 10 8:01 PM

jjdiffley,

"Also what about Lancers such as those used by the French?"

The French did not have any regiments of lancers in the 1680 to 1720 time period, except for possibly a purely ceremonial Guard unit. The first lancers to take the field for the French in the 18th century, to the best of my knowledge, were Marshall de Saxe's "Uhlans" of the SYW era, and opinions vary as to their actual presence or degree of participation. There is anecdotal evidence that the earliest "Hussars" in French service (native Hungarians) may have used lances among the various and sundry equipment they could be armed with, but these were not "battle cavalry", they were lights used for scouting, raiding, plundering, etc.

In the last two-thirds of the 17th century the French did employ Cossacks, Croats, Hungarians and even some native Poles (but NOT Winged Hussars) in basically the same capacity.

Respectfully,

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

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#28 [url]

Apr 22 10 9:54 AM

jjdiffley,
"Also what about Lancers such as those used by the French?"
The French did not have any regiments of lancers in the 1680 to 1720 time period, except for possibly a purely ceremonial Guard unit. The first lancers to take the field for the French in the 18th century, to the best of my knowledge, were Marshall de Saxe's "Uhlans" of the SYW era, and opinions vary as to their actual presence or degree of participation. There is anecdotal evidence that the earliest "Hussars" in French service (native Hungarians) may have used lances among the various and sundry equipment they could be armed with, but these were not "battle cavalry", they were lights used for scouting, raiding, plundering, etc.
In the last two-thirds of the 17th century the French did employ Cossacks, Croats, Hungarians and even some native Poles (but NOT Winged Hussars) in basically the same capacity.
Respectfully,
Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

-burlesonbill

As the 18th Century is 4-5 centuries later than my field of study, I will bow to your knowledge good sir.

BTW, you can call me John.  That's why I sign my posts ;-)

John

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#29 [url]

Apr 24 10 10:51 PM

Great to see and I will pre-order some. Important thing at the moment though guys are finalising the WSS infantry.

This is awesome! Who would'a thunked it, 28mm WSS. Amazing!

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#30 [url]

Apr 25 10 2:39 AM

Having the plastic cavalry will be a massive bonus since they cost so much in metal and made up a large proportion of the armies in this period.

Personally, I'm not that bothered about plastic artillery and can't really see it being viable. How many guns are you going to need? I'm anticipating 2 or 3. Guess if you want to represent the batalion guns you might need more.

The way I'm looking at doing this period is lots of generic plastic infantry and cavalry for the bulk of the troops then Front Rank metals for the Generals, Artillery and the units with distinctive uniforms or equipment. By that I mean Cuirassiers, French dragoons in gaiters, troops of the Maison de Roi etc.
Have already started painting some dragoons and a general, can't wait for the plastic infantry, they look so good now.

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#31 [url]

Apr 25 10 5:45 AM

Having the plastic cavalry will be a massive bonus since they cost so much in metal and made up a large proportion of the armies in this period.
Personally, I'm not that bothered about plastic artillery and can't really see it being viable. How many guns are you going to need? I'm anticipating 2 or 3. Guess if you want to represent the batalion guns you might need more.

-simon-boulton

never know. still would using victrix's new napoleonic artillery work well or will it obviously look out of place?

Where is his will needed?

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#32 [url]

Apr 25 10 9:16 AM

Kenshin, the British napoleonic guns would be wrong, the barrels too short and the carriage has one bit coming down at the back instead of two. Once you'd bought the metal crew i think it would costs about the same as doing it all in metal . Reiver do some nice metal guns

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#33 [url]

Apr 25 10 4:12 PM

If WF doesn't do artillery for this period, bummer.

I'm thinking it would be neat to have a plastic artillery kit that provides for more than one type of cannon barrel, some artillery crew members, horses, and other equipment to maximize the modeling possibilities.

But that is probably best left for a different thread.


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#34 [url]

Jun 4 10 4:42 AM

Now that we are hopefully not too far off with the infantry, what sort of head options would people like to see for the cavalry?

Obviouly the tricornes for other ranks and officers but I would also like to see a fur cap like the one worn by some British and Dutch dragoons. Can't remember if there is going to be a Bavarian style fur grenadier cap in the infantry set but one of them would be useful too.

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#35 [url]

Jun 5 10 4:10 PM

Gentlemen;

Deciding on the headgear is a bit prickly. WF can follow the original mission and make the sprue as generic as possible from 1690 to 1720 with only floppy hats and tricornes, or they can try and accomodate some or all of the various "odd units" out there. The Queen's Dragoon makes a very good suggestion above that his pictures support. If the figure is generic enough it can be made to work as the bulk of the Horse and Dragoon regiments present. However, there will be compromises.

1. Many Dragoons wore gaiters instead of boots.

2. Most Dragoons wore their sword from a waist belt while most Horse wore their's suspended from a shoulder belt worn over the right shoulder, suspended on the left.

3. Dragoons could be depicted with their full-sized musket in one of three positions: (A) Holding it in their hand; (B) Slung over their shoulder using the musket's sling like an infantryman, or; (C) Slung from the shoulder belt, butt down, as depicted in the picture above.

4. Horse, depending on the nationality and sometimes the specific unit within a given nationality, should be depicted with a shorter fusil or carabin, and could be depicted with it: (A) Suspended from a shoulder belt muzzle down and loose; (B) Suspended from a shoulder belt muzzle down with the muzzle resting in a leather boot attached to the saddlery, or; (C) Simply left off, as not all Horse in all nations carried long arms at this point, relying on just sword and pistols.

How we deal with numbers 1 and 2 will be where we, as gamers/painters have to make compromises. How we deal with numbers 3 and 4 can be aided by the design that WF comes up with, which is why I agree with the Queen's Dragoon's post above.

Now, as to headgear and depicting the more unusual units:

1. You would need a true Grenadier's tall mitre for British Horse Grenadiers, the 2nd Royal North British Dragoons (Scot's Gray's), and Grenadier companies of some Dragoon regiments.

2. You would need a fur-fronted and banded stocking cap to properly depict some French Dragoons or the Grenadiers a Cheval of the Maison du Roi. See Eugene Leliepvre's excellent plates from "le Cimier" on these units here.

3. You would need a stiffened cloth short front (like a short mitre) on a stocking cap to depict other French Dragoons and Dragoons of some other nationalities, and the "bag" of the cap could be suspended down in back or down on the left side. Again, reference the Dragoon plate by Leliepvre here.

4. You would need a shorter version of the Infantry bearskin with a bit of a peak or point at the front to depict Caribiniers and Horse Grenadiers of some Germanic nationalities. Although from a slightly later period, you can see this type of headgear here.

And, it should be noted, none of the above addresses the quite useful Bavarian and Imperial Cuirassiers who still look more like a late ECW Lobster than anything else, wearing a leather buff coat and European-style lobster pot helmet. Nor does it address those Horse units that typically wore the coat open with a breastplate or full cuirass underneath.

And, as to artillery (agree, it should be a separate thread), the amount of artillery models and crew will vary greatly depending on the rules used. I will need many more to play at 1:20 than someone playing BLB with 18-fgure battalions or the new "Le Roi de Soleil" supplement for "Impetus" with 12-figure battalions. Most field artillery will be grouped into one or more "grand batteries" and not likely to move about during the game, while Infantry battalion guns will be prolonged by their crews after initial deployment. Also, the battalion guns were usually at least partially-crewed by Infantry drafted from the ranks and the field artillery were often supported by pioneers who would look essentially like Infantry.

All of the above, both on the Cavalry and the Artillery, supports (I feel) the need for a separate Head and Accessory sprue (which I have called for previously on the Infantry thread). All of the various unusual heads listed above, as well as bare heads and the more unusual Infantry heads (karpus anyone?), could be accomodated on this sprue. Along with the heads could be included some various Artillery implements, perhaps another torso for the multi-part Infantry figure appropriate for someone detailed to support a battalion gun or a pioneer, and perhaps a few more sidearm options for the folks that prefer making diorama's out of their unit stands with maximum variety, and finally a torso in long waistcoat and no outer coat which would work for not only artillerists and pioneers, but would be perfect for Russians in summer dress and French operating in the Colonies. This latter torso could also be used to depict militia in North America as well as the European regular troops.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com


Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

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#36 [url]

Jun 6 10 2:36 AM

Bill, a very interesting post. I'm imagining the generic cavalry figure to be a bit like the Foundry metal one in concept but with a seperate head. Preferably sized to fit in with the Front Rank range. I was thinking that there's an old school feel about these generic infantry and cavalry figures, when people used the old Spencer Smith plastics for 18th century games they just painted them up in the different uniforms and didn't worry about the discrepacies too much.

I wonder if trying to include Dragoons is stretching the compromise too much since most the variants you listed refer to them rather than the horse regiments. Maybe including an arm holding a musket would be useful for those Dragoons who wore riding boots though. The cavalry carbine might be a tricky one.

Maybe there would be room on the sprue to have a cuirassier body as well. The celtic cavalry set has two different bodies so you can build noble cavalry or light cavalry but only one set of horses so it might be a possibility.

Was interested to read about the Scots Grays wearing Grenadier caps, do you know when they adopted these?

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#37 [url]

Jun 6 10 6:37 AM

simon-boulton;

Most sources agree that the Regiment was "officially" awarded the right to wear the grenadier's mitre as a battle honor by Queen Anne following the battle of Ramillies in 1707 and their capture of the Regiment du Roi. However, there are anectdotal references in various diaries and reports of earlier campaigns that mention the Greys wearing the mitre as early as their arrival in Holland in 1702, and many who believe that Queen Anne was simply recognizing this and making it official when she authorized their honors for Ramillies. The mitre was officially replaced with the tall Guardsman's bearskin hat in 1768, and remained as the headgear throughout the many wars of the 18th and 19th centuries, and is still worn in ceremonial and band uniforms today.

And, BTW, for anyone considering painting the Regiment in it's early years; the "Greys" didn't get their famous grey horses until 1693. After William III's assumption of the throne and the successful end to Monmouth's Rebellion, William's Dutch Life Guards were returned to Holland, but were unable to ship their distinctive grey mounts. For their service in putting down the Rebellion, William presented the Scottish Regiment with the grey horses and the tradition has continued, eventually becoming a part of the Regiment's official name.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

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#38 [url]

Jun 7 10 6:50 AM

Got to say I am most interested in a bog standard trooper in the most common dress.

I am not interested in the more obscure/elite/nationally different figures, in plastic (just yet) but a generic "most common" figure like these old stalwarts from Foundry.

I am interested in less choice and more figures on the sprue.

I don't want one unit as a vignette, but a stupid number of large units to put on the table.

Without so much as a damn your eyes www.16ld.org

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#40 [url]

Jun 8 10 5:14 AM

16qld - I agree that this would be an excellent "compromise" figure, working for the widest variety of nationalities as Horse and still acceptable as Dragoons in some armies.

simon-boulton - There would still need to be a separate officer and cornet torso or figure. The officer typically wore a sash (either over the shoulder or 'round the waist) and the cornet always had some form of belt worn from the left shoulder to the right side to secure the colours. This shoulder belt would terminate at a higher point than a cartridge belt or musket sling, and would usually be decorated with fringe. Certainly something that could be done with a bit of Green Stuff, but not something that many gamers will wish to do. The biggest problem that I see with this solution, even making some "generic" compromises, is with the musicians. Regiments of Horse would have a trumpeter and Regiments of Dragoons would have a side drummer with an Infantry-style drum carried on the left side while mounted. Once you decide on using a trumpeter, is it one in a relatively plain coat or one in an ornate coat with false hanging sleeves in the back? And this doesn't even address mounted kettle drummers, which were present in the field at least with the French, Bavarians, Swedes and some German states, as several were captured during the WSS and the GNW.

Please don't get me wrong, I very much want to see WF produce a "generic" set of cavalry, perhaps even two sets. However, depending on the gamers tastes and/or the relative scale of the rules being played, it's hard to ignore the details like musicians or a proper cornet. If you're playing a set of rules in which 6-12 figures represents a regiment of Cavalry, then it might be easier to simply leave off the musicians and kitbash a few cornets (not all Cavalry carried colours in the field). However, if you're using those same 6-12 figures to only represent a single squadron or even a troop, then you will probably want those "extra" figures. Even many of the folks playing with smaller, abstracted units will still want them just for the color they add to the unit.

Now, assuming (always dangerous) that WF follow the format used with their Ancient Cavalry, a single new horse sprue will be required with horses appropriate to the period and larger than the ponies used in the Ancients sets. There could then be two new sprues done for riders, the first as "generic" Horse and the second as "generic" Dragoons. Each of these sprues (following the hints we've received on the Infantry sprue) could contain two one-piece troopers with a separate right arm to allow posing and variety, and possibly separate heads. The third figure on the sprue could be a multi-part with separate legs and four headless torsos; an officer, a cornet and a musician appropriate to that sprue type (trumpeter for Horse and drummer for Dragoons), and a third trooper to allow a little more variety and animation. This layout would allow gamers to model almost any mounted regiment at whatever scale their rules dictate.

And, if the idea of a separate Head and Accessory sprue is picked-up on, the parts on that sprue could allow for the conversion to the more unusual units in the respective army. Just my thoughts, but you might as well ask for the best and then scale back, instead of only asking for the minimum.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Bill Sir William the Aged www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

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